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AquilaTempestas

The Antagonistic Bosses [Pokemon]

14 posts in this topic

I decided to open this thread since I'm currently writing a scene about some of the team bosses in the games, and thought I'd open a discussion about them.

I am of course referring to Giovanni, Maxie, Archie, Cyrus, Ghetsis, Lysanre, Archer, Guzma and Lusamine.

Who do you feel is truly evil? Who do you think is simply misguided?

I'll write down a far more in-depth guide about my thoughts on these guys (and one gal) when I get some more replies. It'll be a good read, I promise, with some comical moments.

@Lightningblade49 @Ace of Spies @onewiththewheels @Roziel  @PKMNfanSakura @StormyAmethyst @Kage @Wizarmonfan @Bunny Hop! @Sakura Alexia @Hikari

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Ghetsis is most evil in my opinion due to his manipulation of everyone in Unova and especially how he raised N and essentially mentally scarred him by surrounding him with abused pokemon tricking him into believing in the goal of 'liberating pokemon' which was just a facade of course. He raised him just to play as a pawn in his plan.

Maxie and Archie wanted to create more land/sea, they aren't evil as Maxie was doing it for human civilisation whilst Archie was doing it so Pokemon who lived in the sea would be better off. They just badly failed Geography class.

Giovanni was a mafia boss essentially, he is evil like Ghetsis and both put facades up (Ghetsis promoted pokemon liberation whilst Giovanni posed as a gym leader, neither would have been expected by public as evil) as well as he engaged in Pokemon Trafficking pretty much and got a Marowak killed. He probably got more pokemon killed too.

Cyrus wanted to create a new world without emotion as he believed the current world was greatly flawed because of them. Not quite evil as he wanted basically to make a better world (like Light from Death Note but at least Cyrus didn't start killing people willynilly)

Lysandre's goal seems evil, destroy everyone in the world but Team Flare and those he deems good. But he wanted a better world like Cyrus and some people pointed out Lysandre is genuinely upset by his own plan. So its implied he's doing everything out of desperation and feeling there's no better way.

Archer seemed to just be really attached to Team Rocket. We don't really know much about him at all but with how desperate he was for Giovanni to return it makes me wonder if he felt he had no place anywhere but with Team Rocket.

Put Guzma and Lusamine in spoilers in case people haven't played...

And that kind of ties into Guzma and Team Skull, the team is a group of 'misfits' but also it's shown to be like a family. And Guzma is heavily implied (and it's pretty much confirmed in the Japanese version apparentally) to have been beaten by his father. So I don't see him as evil but rather desperate to have a family unit and as Plumeria says he likes Lusamine because she's the only adult that paid him attention, or along those lines, I think he's just an attention starved overgrown kid 

Then Lusamine pretty much went crazy after her husband disappeared and combined with Nihilego's neurotoxins she was pretty much out of it and manipulated by that ultra beast. But at the same time she wanted to live in Ultra Space so she just wanted some peace maybe? Less evil more crazy I'd say

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Yeah, I think I'd have to agree with Ghetsis. He only wanted power, and he manipulated everyone else by saying otherwise! Even his own supposed son. He lied to the own team he was leading just so then he could gain power and rule by himself. He was pretty cunning too, having some sort of plan to get the legendaries...

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I agree with @Roziel. The only ones that I think are truly evil are Giovanni and Ghetsis, and I feel like the later is more evil than the first (he tried to kill us after all, but I don't know, now that I think about it I can't decide which one is worse. While in the end Ghetsis didn't kill us, thanks to Giovanni a Pokémon died, still I feel that there's more bad in the former leader of Team Plasma).

The others (Cyrus, Lysandre, Archie, Maxie) wanted to create a better world, even though the path to achieve that goal wasn't a good one the intention was. They were conviced that they were doing the right thing, that's why I don't see them as evil people.

I was a bit disappointed with Archer to be honest. I think that it's a character that didn't have enough development, I mean we only see him once in the game. He left me with some questions and it gave me the impression that the end was a bit rushed, the guy barely talks, it was as if a new boss was needed and they put him there. I may be wrong but that's how I see it.

Finally, Lusamine just went crazy and I feel like Guzma only wanted to be in a family who loved and respected him.

So yeah, all in all, basically as I see it Getshis and Giovanni are evil, Archer should have had a bit more of development, the others wanted a better world but ended up in the wrong path, Guzma wanted some love and attention and Lusamine went mad.

By the way, I can't wait to see what you have prepared for us :D

(I apologize for any mistakes, English isn't my mother tongue).

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I would be a bit hesitant to consider Lusamine as an evil team leader--I imagine that the Aether Foundation was started and had good intentions, but Lusamine going power mad took the foundation with it.

Second of all, Lusamine wasn't completely evil--she went nuts in spite of herself.

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Posted (edited)

Ghestis, evil hands-down. He has no redeeming values, whatsoever. It's kind of interesting and a shame that we don't get to learn more about him (e.g. what drove him to his ambition). I would've loved to see what was in the developers’ heads when they made someone so atypical for a Pokémon game.

 

Lysandere is definitely evil, even though he had very good reasons for it (in all media he was featured in, no less). He even takes the protagonists aback with his reason, not because they are disgusted, but because they realize he actually has a point. Still, the fact that he has good reasons for doing what he does means that he has a lot less of an excuse to be evil then the other villains, and so it makes what he does do even more despicable. This makes it even worse considering some of what he does could have been completely prevented (e.g. Sycamore mentioning that he could've talked to him, and possibly stopped what he was doing).

 

Lusamine is an interesting one. She could go either way, really. Post-Nihiligo, she was definitely evil, but still worth saving. Not to mention that she had very good reasons for doing what she did, even if the player never fully learns of it. Also, it's worth noting Nihiligo amplifies the emotions and tendencies that post has. Therefore, Lusamine could have been misguided before interacting with it (since her reasoning isn't evil at all), or she could've truly been acting evil before Nihiligo got to her… I'm hoping Ultra Sun and Moon expand on her a bit… To be honest, I'm surprised it wasn't one of her children that snapped after the immense pressure Lusamine put them under, or even feeling neglected as she ran the family business… It would've been an interesting twist, especially considering how much influence they have over the player…

 

Giovanni really depends on the medium that he is in. In the games and anime, he's unquestionably evil. In the manga, less so (but that's mainly because there's a greater evil out there he's trying to stop). And even if he didn't take part in many things directly, he gave the orders that allowed his minions to carry out their evil acts… Throughout the games, he stole Pokémon, killed them, put people in danger, deserted his team, and even abandoned his son for no good reason… That's enough to make him evil…

 

Archer… Probably evil, although you could say he was literally misguided into believing that Giovanni would come back… But since Giovanni is evil, and he presumably knows this, this makes him evil for wanting something evil to come back... To be honest, Archer’s actions over the course of the games are so insignificant that it's easy to forget he exists…

 

Cyrus, unquestionably evil. Also holds no remorse for any of his actions that once again endanger many people and Pokémon. However, he is a tragic case of evil when you learn why he turned out the way he did… (Fan theory with Uxie or not). It really makes you wonder what would've happened if things had been different…

 

Guzma, not evil at all. Guy had a miserable life and was implied to be abused… Of course he's going to turn to things like gangs and delinquency in order to survive… And of course he’s not going to listen to rules; they’d never done anything for him. Sure, he follows Lusamine, but he has a good reason for doing so (genuine respect on both sides, or at least it seems initially). And as soon as that reason no longer holds, he ditches the cause. I also think is one of the most interesting of the villains, because all of his reasons make sense with his back story and character. Not to mention that I believe is one the few that treats his minions well.

 

Maxie/Arche, misguided, but how much depends on what game/medium they appear in. In the manga, Archie is unquestionably evil, causing most of the series’ conflict. I believe Maxie is also unquestionably evil in this version, but I am not quite sure. However, Maxie is also less sympathetic in the remakes. Of course, each team has a chance to be benevolent depending on whether one is playing the original Ruby or Sapphire (less so in the remakes). What makes them stand out is that they realize the damage their team has done, try to make amends, and openly regret their actions. If they had known about the about the legendary Pokémon's power, I wonder if they would've went through with their plans…

Edited by onewiththewheels

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34 minutes ago, onewiththewheels said:

 

Maxie/Arche, misguided, but how much depends on what game/medium they appear in. In the manga, Archie is unquestionably evil, causing most of the series’ conflict. I believe Maxie is also unquestionably evil in this version, but I am not quite sure. However, Maxie is also less sympathetic in the remakes. Of course, each team has a chance to be benevolent depending on whether one is playing the original Ruby or Sapphire (less so in the remakes). What makes them stand out is that they realize the damage their team has done, try to make amends, and openly regret their actions. If they had known about the about the legendary Pokémon's power, I wonder if they would've went through with their plans…

2

Let's not forget that Archie killed Maxie in the original Ruby Sapphire manga, then continued to cause problems as Guile Hideout. 

In the end I think both Maxie and Archie learned the error of their ways, especially in the ORAS Manga where they ask their subordinates (Amber and Blaise) to protect the planet. Maxie in the manga is actually a very interesting character as he preferred to leave his subordinates "The Three Fires" to do all the work in achieving his goals and only got involved when the heroes became a nuisance. It is also noted that both show little care for them in the Manga with Archie leaving Amber to die and Maxie kills RSE Courtney by dragging her into the Cave of Origin. 
[The real thing that needs explaining in the Pokemon RS Manga is how the hell Swellow lifts Mitch/Tabitha. He's kinda big]

However in the ORAS Manga both Archie and Maxie are almost polar opposites, instead working together to stop the meteorite from the Delta Episode. I think this contributes to them being less on the Evil side and more towards mistaken and perhaps power hungry? Overall I think these two are the most dynamic bosses from the games with a lot of interesting motives for their actions. We never really learn the full picture as in the games we only get one side of their story, based on the version. In the Manga they weren't major protagonists until the end and in the Anime? A laughing joke to make Team Rocket actually look practical

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We either love them or hate them. These guys (and gal) tried to cause our lives misery in the games by carrying out these strange plans of world domination (like all good villains in anime/manga). I personally think the team bosses are really cool and I feel they represent different types of personality disorders prevalent in today’s society. Anyways, without further ado, here are my thoughts. Please keep in mind I am in no means wrong or right. These views are simply how I interpret the characters based on what we have seen and what we can theorize based on modern day psychological issues. Some of these characters I’ve explored greatly in my stories. Have fun reading!

Guzma

guzma.png

Do you want to punch this guy in the face or give him a big hug?

He’s basically just an overgrown puppy dog who thinks he’s tough, but when he sees Lusamine’s craziness, he backs away and realizes what kind of shit he’s dealing with. Team Skull really have no aspirations of their own (and let’s face it, Team Skull grunts are comically stupid) and are kinda just security guards for Lusamine and her Aether Foundation crew.

Villainy Rating – 1/10. He doesn’t strike me as a very smart person and probably grew up in poverty and turned to Lusamine for some cash in exchange for doing some favours. Poor man just wanted to make a better life for himself.  

Fist Fight Potential – You know, he probably would be right at home in a fist fight, though he looks kinda lean to me.

Archie

180px-Omega_Ruby_Alpha_Sapphire_Archie.p180px-Archie_Adventures.png

I guess he's auditioning for the next Marvel superhero movie

This guy had the genius plan to drown the world. He looks dumb, his plans are dumb, but he does have a cool pirate thing going on. Well, his original design did. Now he looks like a lame superhero wearing super tight swimming outfit. He doesn’t want the world to burn. He just wants the world to drown. What a moron. He’s so stupid he couldn’t even capture the legendary Kyogre, so he’s a true failure. I mean, this guy wants to make right after realizing the error of his ways. He fails on the ‘I am evil’ ranking.

Villainy Rating – 1.5/10. This guy is just stupid and terribly misguided. He even wants to redeem himself afterwards. Not a great leader to instil fear into his enemies. I wouldn’t trust him on the battlefield to lead us to victory that’s for sure.  

Fist Fight Potential – The original Archie probably would do quite well in a fist fight. The new one though? He’s wearing a friggen super tight bathing suit. Can you take him seriously?

Archer

Image result for pokemon archerImage result for pokemon archer manga

Looks like a waiter at a top notch restaurant to me

This guy just misses Giovanni and probably writes sad songs and poetry about Giovanni, his one true love. He wants to make Giovanni proud so he hatches a plan that he thinks will bring Giovanni back to town, but of course, like all these poor souls, he fails. I don’t see him as an evil guy – he’s just someone who wants his object of admiration back to rule and lead the way.

Villainy Rating – 2/10. This guy is just doing bad things out of love for Giovanni. He wants his leader back and tries to replicate the man’s style by doing things Giovanni would’ve done. I mean yes, they cut the tails of Slowpoke, but they didn’t kill them.

Fist Fight Potential – Hmmm, I don’t think he’d like to get his hands dirty. I can’t see him swinging punches or anything. He’s also quite a skinny lean dude and looks like he doesn’t eat much. Can’t see him dominating in the field of battle.

Lysandre

Image result for pokemon lysandreImage result for pokemon lysandre manga

I wonder how much hairspray this man uses to keep his hair up like that? Look at those hips!

This man is probably the type of guy who cries over the death of Bambie’s mother. He probably enjoys candlelit dinners, chick flicks and walks by the beach at sunset. He probably writes romantic poetry and would happily try to serenade a woman with a guitar. He clearly likes to look good as seen by his outlandish outfit and the fashion of his grunts. He likes to do things with style because if you are going to dominate the world, you must look good.

Villainy Rating – 3/10. A very sensitive probably romantic type of man who now only sees so much ugliness in the world. Someone really should’ve given him a big hug and convince him ‘that everything is going to be all right’. Maybe he would’ve changed his mind and become a nice guy again.

Fist Fight Potential – This guy is a softie. If he fought in the ring or on the streets, he’d probably cry over the possibility of breaking a nail or messing up his beautiful hair.

Maxie

Image result for pokemon maxieImage result for pokemon maxie manga

I prefer his original design. I guess he really doesn't like the cold? He's quite covered up. Even his neck is.

This guy had the genius plan to expand the landmass. He is cold and calculating and doesn’t seem as dumb as Archie, but I’m sure he’d make a great real estate agent with more land. More land means more housing which equals more profit, yay. Of course, this comes to the cost of the natural environment being destroyed so he’s just someone who doesn’t give a shit about the environment. However, he couldn’t even capture the legendary Groudon, so he’s a bit of a failure. This man also wants to correct his ways so he’s a pretty bad leader for a so-called ‘evil’ team.

Villainy Rating – 3.5/10. He’s just a real estate agent who sees profit in expanding the landmass. A very annoying salesperson. Yeah. You know what I’m talking about. Those door-to-door salespeople… He even dresses like one.

Fist Fight Potential – He looks kinda old. Probably in his 40’s or something. He’s also quite skinny and has very slender hips. I mean, look at his feminine shape of those hips.

Cyrus

Image result for pokemon cyrusImage result for pokemon cyrus manga

I love this man. I can't recall why he's missing a shirt here, but yayyyyy. He just needed a hug.

Ah, Cyrus, one of my favourite Pokémon characters to ever feature. Now the anime version of him is a complete abomination where he’s portrayed as your stereotypical ‘I want to watch the world burn mwahahahhaah’ type of guy. He’s evil as fuck and even successfully manages to capture some of the legendary Pokémon. He even blows up a lake. How many innocent pokémon died? Quite a few but Cyrus doesn’t give a shit because he’s cold as ice.

In the game version he’s also a bit of a prick and he doesn’t even give up at the end. He wants to continue with his plans to recreate the world without emotion. He’s clearly mentally unstable though and I believe this is due to his childhood upbringing. His grandparents even admit to failing him when he clearly needed help. He was probably taught as a kid that emotions were a weakness. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was bullied for being an introverted kid.

So he probably began to believe emotions were a weakness and that if he wanted to become stronger in life, he had to stop feeling things. He likes to tell the player that he doesn’t feel anything and that he’s a heartless prick, but that’s not true at all. Anger and hate are emotions, and Cyrus feels them very strongly. He’s really just a sensitive person trying to deny it. Let’s not forget to mention he got his Golbat to evolve. Crobat gets to that stage through friendship and love.

Anyways, his manga version (which I consider the true version), reveals he’s just a sensitive tortured soul. He even breaks down in tears at one point and realizes that things like love, heart and such things are what he lacks. He leaves with his Galactic brethren to become a better person. He will find love at the end of the path, I swear it! He’s also exceptionally ripped in the manga. The dude has a very well defined six pack and toned muscles. He probably has his own gym somewhere. Definitely the most buff. I’m sure he’d make some woman very happy.

Villainy Rating – 5/10. If we ignored his redemption arc in the manga, then I’d probably bump him up to about a 7 since he does successfully open the rift to the Distortion World and tortured a few poor pokémon and such, but he’s just suffering from childhood problems. His grandparents seem like cool people. If he sought therapy, he probably would be a good guy with a lot to contribute to the world because he is a smart guy (though not as smart as he thinks since he has Charon there. I think Charon is the true evil here. Evil old fat man who probably manipulated fragile minded Cyrus into this crazy plan).

Fist Fight Potential – This guy is jacked. Enough said.

Giovanni

Image result for pokemon giovanniImage result for pokemon giovanni manga

Looking dapper as always

This man is smart, cold and a true business man. He’s just here to make a profit of the world’s resources, and will happily exploit pokémon to make more dosh. I don’t think he’s evil – he’s just your typical modern day politician who seeks to gain more money by exploiting the poor and helpless, but he gave up when he knew it was over for him.

Villainy Rating – 6/10. He’s your typical leader in government. He’s charismatic, intelligent, and knows how to get the job done. The man was even a gym leader so he fooled everyone into thinking he’s a good dude when really he’s just there to make exploit you for financial gain. If he looks your way, he probably sees dollar signs.

Fist Fight Potential – No, he wouldn’t fight. He might ruin his fancy suit. Why would he fight you when he could simply make you cry with his words? Though he’s pretty strong. I mean… Look at this! Wow. One hand! You can even see veins sticking out of his arm. He’d do pretty well in a fist fight.

Lusamine

Image result for pokemon lusamine

Looks like a model

This woman is a bit crazy, but I don’t see her as truly evil. Yes, she manipulated her children, but I think her lust for power and knowledge made her lose sight of what truly matters. She does freeze pokémon as part of her collection though and that’s kinda messed up. But I do believe she was infected by Nihilgo’s influence (that can change a person’s thoughts) so I don’t see her as truly evil. I think all her actions were done under the ultra beast’s influence.

Villainy Rating – The ultra beast’s influence makes her pretty evil. Based on that, she’s pretty high on the list sitting at around a 7.5.

Fist Fight Potential – Nah, she wouldn’t fight. She’d just try and freeze you.

Ghetsis

Image result for pokemon ghetsisImage result for pokemon ghetsis manga

He wouldn't look out of place in Game of Thrones

Now this man is batshit insane and he knows he’s evil as shit, and that’s why I love this man. There’s nothing more dangerous than man who knows what he is doing is wrong and actively relishes in doing evil for evil’s sake. He doesn’t give up either coming back in the sequel to try again, even going as far to try and kill you. His grunts also seem smart, and truly believe in their cause to free ‘enslaved’ Pokémon. They don’t seem like dumb assess like the other grunts in the series. He’s brutal. He’s relentless. He’s charismatic. He’s intelligent. He’s menacing. He’s determined. He’s cruel and knows that he is and has no regrets.

I’ve got this theory that this man was physically tortured as a child. The dude is a cripple essentially – I believe he’s missing a hand and an eye? Maybe he’s got some disease eating away at him or something.

Villainy Rating – 10/10. This guy is the only team boss I would fear if we crossed paths in the street. He would fit right at home in Game of Thrones. He’s the Pokémon world version of Ramsay Bolton and Eugon Greyjoy.

Fist Fight Potential – Low. He’s destroy you with just words alone. Besides, the dude has a staff which seems to act like his walking stick. He also has one working eye so vision could be a bit of a problem. 

Lance (not a team boss but had to write this)

Of course, there’s also Lance (one of my favourite males)…. Dude tried to blow up a lot of people and kill a teenager, but he’s not a team boss. But he’s evil as shit and a prick, and I love him for it. He hyperbeamed a man. His Dragonites somehow evolved early (he probably put them in the Lake of Rage to get them to evolve early that sly dog). He forcefully caused three Electrodes to faint. He leads the Elite Four and there are shady as fuck in the manga. He also coordinates Silver’s actions in the manga.  Although he did try to repent later on… But still, he was a dickhead.

Examples of Lance being a dickhead (the sheer inspiration for Souls of the Damned Lance. Yeah. That Lance. Fear him.)

After Lance attacks Vermilion City, he says "They didn't die. The surfing contest is quite the event . . . the city should have been empty." (awww, innocent Lance . . .)

Yellow: "What?!"

Lance (smirking): "Well, a trainer or two might have bit the dust, but . . . Heh." (Never mind . . .).

 

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Nice job putting the manga version of Lance up. I didn't originally consider him part of this, but the way you worded it makes sense.

 

I'm surprised the leaders of Cipher aren't up here. Then again, a lot of them are basically Ghetsis before he came into existence...

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1 minute ago, onewiththewheels said:

Nice job putting the manga version of Lance up. I didn't originally consider him part of this, but the way you worded it makes sense.

 

I'm surprised the leaders of Cipher aren't up here. Then again, a lot of them are basically Ghetsis before he came into existence...

I know nothing about Cipher lol.

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30 minutes ago, AquilaTempestas said:

I know nothing about Cipher lol.

Without going into spoilers, I will say the majority of Cipher are really ruthless and highly competent. The few who aren't are still dedicated to the cause… It's like having an entire organization of Ghetsis…

 

If you liked Black/White villains, you should give the Orre games a try… It's definitely much darker than the regular games, and more difficult as well.

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@AquilaTempestas 

Both Maxie and Archie have commited murder and attempted murder, where does this put them on your scale?

Maxie: Murdered Norman and Courtney and dozens of his own people, Attempted to kill Ruby and Winona + Every person in Hoenn. 

Archie: Killed Maxie, Courtney and dozens of his own people, nearly killed Amber and Tabitha and every person in Hoenn.

 

What about the Admins and Commanders of the regional teams? Where do these guys fit on the scale? 

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I'll put it this way if there was one I had to choose from these people not to meet in a dark alley by myself it would be Lusamine. While I wouldn't call her evil, she is definitely quite mental just hope you have met her before she even knows of the concept Ultra Beast or her silky words will suck you in.

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